Discussing Batman Comics With Shag

Speaker 1 0:03

This is the Bat Pod .

Speaker 3 0:12

Welcome to the Bat Pod , a Batman comic book discussion podcast . On today's show , we'll be discussing Tectiv Comics 612 . Welcome to Episode 116 . My name is Bill Beer and joining me tonight the catnip of the Bat Pod , J David Weeder . I don't know how I feel about that . No , you didn't like that one .

Speaker 4 0:56

Oh , I didn't say I didn't like it , I said I don't know how I feel .

Speaker 3 0:59

It's perfect for this episode . Perfect , it's perfect , yeah , yes , perfect . Tonight we have a special guest and this special guest has been in podcasting for a while . I know him , david knows him . If you ever listen to the Fire and Water podcasting network , we have Shag Matthews .

Speaker 1 1:22

The irredeemable Shag is here to say wow .

Speaker 3 1:27

Very irredeemable , from what I understand .

Speaker 4 1:30

The latex outfit was not necessary though You asked for Zoom .

Speaker 1 1:34

That's not my fault . I'm very irredeemable . You can read about me in both public bathrooms places like that So I promise you It's all legit .

Speaker 3 1:43

It's all true .

Speaker 1 1:44

I'm so excited to be here . Thank you so much , Bill . I'm so thrilled . I have been saying your name on podcasts for years , From retweets and various things you've done with the network And Dave . I've known you for ages And I'm just so excited to be here to talk about my Batman phase .

Speaker 4 1:59

I'd say we're glad to have you , but we're not . I'm not . Bill might be .

Speaker 3 2:04

Well , i do have to say in previous episodes and we've only been podcasting me and David here for what six , seven episodes ? He mentions you a lot , but I can't say it's a positive thing . It's usually something like oh , you had to mention Shag .

Speaker 1 2:23

I heard my name on an episode or two ago . You said it three times , So I appear like like Beetlejuice .

Speaker 3 2:28

Right , right . So it did happen , david . You got what you wished for .

Speaker 4 2:33

That restraining order lapsed so .

Speaker 1 2:36

Well it has . it's been seven years since we recorded together Dave , so that I think that's the natural length of a podcast restraining order .

Speaker 3 2:43

This is the first . This is the first I do have to say . Never restraining orders is the first for the bad pod . So when we have guests on the podcast here , i always like to get a little info . You know , background , secret , origin info . So the first thing I'm going to ask is give us your Batman comic book origin .

Speaker 1 3:08

Well , when I was born , I came out actually with a rolled up comic in my back pocket . It was a sad sack . It wasn't Batman , but so , to be specific , about Batman . So I don't remember a time where I didn't know about Batman , right . So I grew up watching Super Friends , like you know , the filmation Batman cartoon with Batman and things like that . I had it . A little bit of research . I did find the very first Batman comic I owned , not physically at the house , but I mean I looked online and found the car . It was Batman 294 . So that's going back to September 1977 .

Speaker 1 3:39

No idea why I ended up with this thing . I had this really creepy cover where the Joker has gassed Batman and Batman's face is blank And it just looks terrifying . And it was part of that many deaths of Batman storyline . It was like multi issue where Batman had died and there was this big trial with all the villains to discover who killed Batman . And that was the last part . So I had that . I don't even know if I could read the word balloons when I had it . I just remember looking at the pictures over and over and as a kid . So that was my earliest one .

Speaker 1 4:04

I will mention one other one , just because it like haunted me for years from November 1978 , was World's Finest 255 . It was one of those big dollar comics , so it's got like a bunch of stories in it , right , and the creeper was in there , which freaked me out and still does to this day . But anyway , the Batman story , batman and Superman ended up dealing with this other Batman that apparently existed before Bruce Wayne ever took on the guys . It's turned out to be this Native American Batman in like maybe the 30s or the 40s . They didn't really give a year , they didn't pigeonhole . So anyway , it's another one of those where , as a kid , i don't remember ever being able to read the words , but it really stuck with me .

Speaker 1 4:37

That's where I started with Batman And then , you know , see him in Justice League , all these things . But where I really became a collector , where my Batman phase began , was somewhere around 88 , 89 . I don't know if you heard about it . There was a little bit of popularity boost of Batman for some reason . People got into it And I got a bunch of trades . I got the Dark Knight Returns trade the year one . I got the hardcover . I picked up the year two back issues . I got the killing joke , you know , and I even bought the Death and the Family trade , the one that came out like 15 seconds after that last issue dropped , and that's what really got me passionate about Batman .

Speaker 3 5:13

Yeah , I'm right around the same era . It was right around Batman 400 when that came out . That's when I started collecting it monthly . So I'm right around the same time . So all those detective issues , you know it was Batman and detective until we got into Nightfall and that sort of thing , And then other books were added . But yeah . I've been there and I never left , fortunately and unfortunately . it all depends .

Speaker 4 5:46

Just for legal analysis , Sharon , you'd say your Batman phase really began in 1989? .

Speaker 1 5:51

I don't . It's like it's 87 , 80 , 89 . It's somewhere in that . I can't remember when I got these trades . It was before the movie , i don't remember that , but it's somewhere around there , yeah .

Speaker 4 5:59

When did it end ? Because , bear in mind , you're on a Batman podcast right now .

Speaker 1 6:03

But we're talking about old comics So that's where I'm okay . It ended sometime after No Man's Land . No Man's Land I was all in on . I absolutely loved it . It's almost a little bit of a jump the shark Not in a bad way , but the true definition of jump the shark is like things are so good They're never that good again . So for me No Man's Land was just so incredible . When they get back to the monthly comics , I had a hard time still engaging because I had hit the pinnacle of amazingness and I just kind of faded away . Now I look at other people and point and laugh when they're still in their Batman phase .

Speaker 4 6:38

I feel like it might have actually kept going . Are you still reading Daredevil ?

Speaker 1 6:45

I am still a very active fan of Daredevil . Yeah , i don't read it every month , but I go through big phases where I'll read like 30 issues in Iran , you know , catch up a couple years' worth . So yeah , i'd say I'm still in my Daredevil phase .

Speaker 4 6:56

So legally , speaking , being a fan of Marvel's Batman , you're still in a Batman phase of sorts .

Speaker 1 7:02

I feel like there's something along the lines of a sneaky lawyer trick that's happening here . Wasn't that what you called it on Dave's Daredevil ? That's what I call it . yeah , i feel like I'm being the subject of a sneaky lawyer trick . So , yeah , i guess you could call my Daredevil phase a Marvel version of my Batman phase . Yeah , that's fine .

Speaker 4 7:18

Dear Chris Franklin and Ryan Daly got him .

Speaker 3 7:26

So , yeah , the other thing that I wanted to ask you while we have you here is it's always interesting to me because I have this long history of a podcasting which nobody even knows about , because they were always usually bad . I mean , i mentioned it on here before . My first one was like in 2008 and I did like two episodes . It was just me and then I was iTunes was the only thing available at the time and somebody gave me a review and then I quit like for like three years because they were they were not the kindest , and then then I started this the first version of the bad pot in 2011 and it continued to where we are today . There's been podcasts that you would start and has like got 10 episodes and it's like , ah , but this one , this one , has less of the longest

Comic Book Podcast and Detective Comics

Speaker 3 8:22

. What is your comic book podcast origin ? How did you get started ?

Speaker 1 8:28

It was a friend of mine actually pushed me into it . I was very close with my old college friends for a number of years and we all used to get together every year and go to DragonCon together . We do this is this is as adults to adults that already have children we'd still act like we're college kids . We'd all pack into one hotel room together and crash together and anyway , while we were there , my buddy said we should all do a podcast together And so we started doing a podcast . It's called the unique geek . It's still around . It's kind of the semi official podcast of DragonCon actually , and it was kind of a panel show and it was . I loved it . It was absolute chaos . It was just everyone talking whenever they wanted about whatever they wanted . It was crazy . It was fun , but did that for a little while . That's actually how I met Michael Bailey and dragged him into it as well , And so he started podcasting with us and then I kind of sort of drifted away from there and at the time I was running blogs .

Speaker 1 9:15

I did a blog all about Firestorm Firestorm fan and Rob Kelly was doing a blog all about Aquaman Aquaman Shrine And we had teamed up on blog crossovers a couple of times here and there . And then he got it in his head . He wanted to do a podcast , reached out to me . We came up with the ridiculous notion of pairing Aquaman a Firestorm , which makes no sense whatsoever . Thankfully , we tumbled onto a great name out of it Fire and Water . And that's what born our network And really , even though the Fire and Water Aquaman Firestorm shows what launched it , I really think who's who is kind of what founded our network . Because so many people came to listen , not because of us but because they love who's who , And we became friends with all this community and got to know all the listeners and listeners got to know us in this huge community of friends built And a lot of those friends ended up on our network or our partners or just whatever , And so that's where it all kind of grew out of .

Speaker 3 10:07

Yeah , I remember there were like the invasion . Yeah , I'd cast was on there and they were . We did like every issue in the side issues .

Speaker 1 10:16

I remember listening to those and Cisco , cisco and boss Yep , absolutely Yeah .

Speaker 3 10:22

So some , some great stuff there .

Speaker 1 10:24

So well , thank you for asking me . That's thousands of episodes later , but we started , interestingly , the same year as you , 2011 .

Speaker 3 10:31

You said , if I don't a thousand , no , no .

Speaker 1 10:35

Well , i don't mean like I've done a thousand , but if you collectively pull in Ryan Daley , right , I am .

Speaker 4 10:40

Yeah , yeah . Yeah , we have done a thousand at this point .

Speaker 1 10:43

That's quite possibly true . Yeah , yeah , we in 2011 for us . I don't know if it was the same impetus for you , but we're like oh , this is a great chance to start a podcast . There's this cool new thing called the new 52 . This is going to be great . We'll start a podcast to launch right in sync with that . That's actually what was the impetus to get it done .

Speaker 3 11:01

Well , that's how my original started . new 52 started . We started right at issue one and all the books were at issue one . So that's how it started , and then you know how it went with a lot of those books . They kind of just went off the cliff , and so did the podcast . at that point , yeah .

Speaker 1 11:22

We stopped reviewing the new 52 after not too long but Batman didn't change for the most part .

Speaker 3 11:28

Some of the some of the other characters changed a lot And we had talked . We had talked Batman number zero a few episodes ago and , yeah , we just mentioned , you know , superman , they really that well , they're all back basically to how they were previously .

Speaker 1 11:47

So really enjoyed that discussion of the bike because I always wanted to read that Scott Snyder year zero and listening to your podcast really got me energized to think about it now . And I've got DC unlimited infinites or whatever DC universe infinite , so I'm probably going to dive in there and it's y'all to blame .

Speaker 4 12:02

I recommend it . So oh no , I'm happy about that .

Speaker 3 12:04

Yeah , did you learn anything like maybe you should need cake or anything like that , or if somebody brings you know and we'll have that too coming up What we learned about this episode . But you should really listen to what , what we tell you out there , because it's really important stuff . Sometimes It could save your life .

Speaker 1 12:25

I'm going to get a little journal and start writing down every episode . You know what you learn . I'm going to put it under my pillow at night and make sure I remember .

Speaker 3 12:33

Okay , That's the first . No , I used to have a boss , Okay , And I don't know where this is going on , but I had a boss and he's like I was when I was single This was in the nineties and he's like . You know what He says you're single . right Says you want to meet a lady . He says put everything that you want in a lady in a list and write this list and stick it under your pillow at night and it will come true . I never actually tried that , but I always like telling that story because it's kind of kind of out there .

Speaker 1 13:07

So there's a whole episode with Ross and Joey and Chandler and friends about making lists about women that don't end well , so it's probably best you didn't do that .

Speaker 3 13:15

Right , So let's go ahead and we're going to head to the book . Come on , Robin to the Batcave . We have one moment to lose .

Speaker 3 13:24

Okay , our book tonight is Detective Comics 612 . Your writer is Alan Grant , pencils Norm Brayfogel , anchor Steve Mitchell , colorists Adrian Roy , letterer Todd Klein and editor Dennis O'Neill . In this issue , batman saves an old lady from skater punks in Robinson Park , throwing one of them in the bushes nearby where he finds a corpse of a man , apparently devoured by some kind of animal . At that moment Thomas Blake realizes that his Siberian tiger has escaped into Gotham and he goes looking for his pet as the Catman . Catman searches for his tiger while the GCPD investigate , reporter Sarah Duhlman accuses Catwoman of being responsible for the grim murder on live TV . Catwoman sees this on TV in his outrage , So she goes to intervene .

Speaker 3 14:17

Batman finds the tiger while it's attacking another thug . Catwoman sees him and slices the bat rope , forcing Batman to fight the tiger with his bare hands . Batman beats the tiger into submission while Catwoman arrives and throws Catman off a roof . Catman survives as he stumbles past two shady animal catchers . These men have been catching stray cats all night so they can sell to a research lab . When they see Catman , they are terrified and swear to never hurt cats again . Later Catwoman finds Sarah Duhlman and angrily tells her that she doesn't eat people . as this is being recorded on live TV . Catwoman slashes at the camera . in the aftermath , that tiger is taken to the zoo and Catwoman returns home , is very happy . So Detective Comics 612 . I asked Shagg when he came on the show bring a book with you , and this was your pick . Tell us why did you pick this book ?

Speaker 1 15:20

It actually ties directly to my Batman face . I mentioned all those trades I had bought , right . This was the first issue I started buying on a monthly basis because , like I had , in addition to the trades , i had picked up year three because it just looked amazing , right . And then I followed that . I'm like , oh okay , what's this little new place at dying ? That looks kind of cool . But then I stopped . I'm like , okay , i've gotten enough . I guess I just like the big popcorn , batman , summer blockbusters .

Speaker 1 15:43

But then , for whatever reason , and I can't even tell you why , this issue grabbed my attention on the stands . I picked it up and from then on I was buying Detective in Batman every month all the way until after No Man's Land . And I don't know whether it's just the amazing art of the cover . I don't know whether it's because Catman was in Who's Who and I always remember that fondly , or maybe the previews catalog was starting to say more Tim Drake was coming , because Tim Drake was kind of my spirit animal there . I don't know , but this was the one man . This is the issue that made me become a month to month Batman fan .

Speaker 4 16:17

I was . I never read this until now . I'm a little ashamed And of course the creative team is just the goat And I was really sad and as I realized , oh , they're no longer with us , it just kind of hit me . I know what I've read . Granton may break up both , since they both passed , but this time it hit me . Also , on the first page , did you guys notice the Allison Wonderland statue ?

Speaker 1 16:38

I did . I have a question about that . What did you notice ?

Speaker 4 16:41

Well it's . I just realized how weird Allison Wonderland overlays on the back , because you have multiple Batman , allison Wonderland , theme villains or themes . I'm like why does that fit so well ?

Speaker 1 16:53

What triggered in my mind is isn't the the sort of famous Allison Wonderland statue in a park ? Isn't that in Central Park ? Because I remember an issue of Firestorm where they were dealing with a statue of the Allison Wonderland , all the characters , and it was in Central Park . So I just didn't know . And , dave , you being a New York geography guy throwing that back at you , i didn't know if that was just . Maybe this is supposed to be New York originally or you know , gotham's kind of always New York , right , dave's on the Googles .

Speaker 4 17:22

Yes , it is in New York , it is in Central Park and it is almost exactly that statue . They're on mushrooms , wow , okay , yeah , i hadn't put that together , but you're right .

Speaker 1 17:31

Well , a credit to Pat Broderick . In my case , I can't really . I just remember it from Firestorm .

Speaker 3 17:36

That's cool . That's cool . I didn't know that at all .

Geography of Gotham in DC Universe

Speaker 4 17:39

The Gotham Metropolis New York . New Jersey thing has always been murky .

Speaker 1 17:43

So you guys talked about that on an episode not too long ago about where it is . So I always go back to the Atlas of the DC Universe by Paul Kupperberg . That's my Bible for geography in DC .

Speaker 4 17:54

Was that part of the role-playing game ? It was . Is that a completely set ? Okay , that's what I thought .

Speaker 1 17:57

It was part of the role-playing game , but it's so tangentially involved with the role-playing game It's more just a reference book . I mean , honestly , you could put it right next to your who's who and it just makes sense when you start flipping through it , because it gives you all the history of the cities , it gives you maps , it shows you the whole United States . Oh , we're here , here's Star City , here's Central City , et cetera , et cetera .

Speaker 3 18:16

So I have to ask where does it say Gotham is ?

Speaker 1 18:19

Well , according to the Atlas , it puts Gotham City in the southern , southeastern zone of New Jersey , right along the water . So it puts it down to New Jersey , New Jersey , and then , because Metropolis always has to be across the bay , right , metropolis is in the southern part of Delaware , but there's a giant body of water between them , so it works quite perfectly . and they wedge Dover , for whatever reason , in the map , in between the two .

Speaker 3 18:44

Interesting Got to have that Dover .

Speaker 1 18:47

Right .

Speaker 3 18:48

That's weird because I live not far from DC or Baltimore , So Dover , the family goes to Ocean City a lot and Delaware is not that far north .

Speaker 1 19:02

They also put Civic City up near there too , by the way .

Speaker 3 19:05

Oh Civic City .

Speaker 1 19:06

Yeah , i think that's the atom right , the original atom , if I remember it . I don't know , maybe .

Speaker 4 19:11

I had that wrong . Where's Hub City Now ? I need to get this book , yeah , yeah .

Speaker 1 19:17

So , to answer your question , if Hub City looks to be at the bottom of Illinois kind of a strange place to put it , because I mean Hub City is pretty much supposed to be Chicago , right , i mean ?

Speaker 4 19:27

that's pretty , i think so . Yeah , and that's at the northern part of Illinois .

Speaker 1 19:29

Yeah , so interesting . Okay , yeah , atlas of DC Universe cannot recommend it enough , and you can find some of these maps online too , if you can't get your hands on the book .

Speaker 3 19:38

Okay , we're going to back up here for a minute .

Speaker 1 19:42

We took control . The train went off the tracks there , Bill Sorry .

Speaker 3 19:45

Because I want to talk about that cover real quick , and this is a norm-brafe Fogel cover . Anybody that doesn't know he's my favorite Batman artist And just looking at this cover , what he does with capes is magical . It's pure magical . I love this cover . This has always been one of my favorite covers , just because you see Cat Man and Cat Woman there in the background . They're like in dark , but the yellow cape is flowing , the cat on this chest , and then Batman looks like he's being clawed by cats . What did you guys think of this cover ?

Speaker 1 20:26

The cover is incredibly striking . I'm glad you pointed out Cat Man silhouette . That's what attracted me to this is the giant glowing yellow cat on his chest . As you said , the spawn-like cape although this is pre-date spawn , obviously it looks fantastic And I love a norm-brafe Fogel signature , if you notice , actually flows out of one of the cape lines , so it's really nicely done the way he did that . And I had to go back and look because I wasn't sure on this . This is actually the first issue with this Detective Comics logo And sadly , it only lasted about a year this particular logo . But because this was my jumping-on point , to me , this is what the Detective Comics logo is supposed to look like . For me , that's what it is . And yeah , bray Fogel is also my absolute . He's my Batman artist as well . I'm right there with you . I love this cover . It's fantastic . The glowing green eyes and the tiger just makes me want to say it's the eye of the tiger .

Speaker 1 21:17

Anyway , sorry .

Speaker 4 21:19

I was going to mention the logo too . This is a fantastic logo . The V in Detective is a bat And Bray Fogel is such an awesome artist . He made Catman the cool before Secret Six . if anybody's read Secret Six , He managed to make Catwoman cool without Gale Simone .

Speaker 1 21:35

I think this is the . Unless I'm mistaken , i think this is the debut of this costume for Catman .

Speaker 4 21:39

It didn't last long . It worked when Bray Fogel does it .

Speaker 3 21:42

but Yeah , this particular costume , this is the debut of that . As we go in here , i'll mention you know his first appearance was in Detective 311 . And there are some similarities between the story and something that happens in that particular book . But I know in previous issues of Detective Comics a few years previously , catman thought that his costume had healing properties . So he accused Batman of trying to kill him and he had his face scarred . But they had took part of his cape and he tried to get part of this cape back because he thought it was going to heal his face , because his costume wasn't whole and he thought getting this piece would heal him and that didn't work out so well . And then this is his next appearance after that .

Speaker 1 22:35

And he doesn't have a scarred face on this one , unless I'm mistaken , right ?

Speaker 3 22:37

No , no , he doesn't . He's a goofy , you know , goofy character , compared to what we get in Gale Simone's Secret 6 , where he turns into like an awesome character that is way more interesting than anything that we got previously .

Speaker 3 22:54

But so we're going to jump in this book . We already talked about the first page , since that was brought up out of order . But it's all good . Chaos , it's chaos . We have these two Gator punks and they are a bunch of punks because they not only steal her purse , but the second one knocks her over Seriously . But yeah , we find out here . Batman is and it's actually a good . We were talking about this scene that has , you know , the Alice in Wonderland characters and you see in the back , you know , crossing the moon , you see Batman swinging . That's a kind of a cool looking at the top there . But then we get in here and we see that a tiger has mulled somebody . The lady is kind of stressed because her cat and Batman's like oh , if I see your cat out and about , i'll return your cat .

Speaker 1 23:55

You're just going to find a random cat and be like here's your cat . Like right , my cat's an orange tabby . What is he doing ? This is a tuxedo cat . Get out of here , batman .

Speaker 3 24:03

Did he get her address or what's going on there ?

Speaker 1 24:07

I love Bray Foggle on these pages with the skate rats . How dynamic the movement is , the speed lines you know , even without having to change panels , like on page two . He uses a tree limb as a panel border . If you really look at it , there's the top image where they're chasing the skaters and then the bottom image beneath where he's kicking the guy . I love the dynamic movement that he does with the skateboarders . It just looks great .

Speaker 3 24:32

And he does that with the Batmobile a lot of times , with the way it's speeding at night or different things . It's very well done when you see movement And that's one thing I always noticed with him .

Speaker 4 24:49

He has this weird paradox where his art is both smooth curves and sharp angles and that's somehow evocative of motion . I can't figure it out logically . It works .

Speaker 3 25:02

No , the other thing I really like is a lot of times you see Batman , you know his . The front of his chest is like in a shadow , except for the yellow oval . I really like seeing that . That really stands out when he does that .

Speaker 1 25:16

You're talking about on page three .

Speaker 3 25:17

Yes .

Speaker 1 25:18

Yeah , I love the next panel where Batman is all silhouette except for the eyes and the face . I love it when he does that . Now , one of his signature moves is , you know , and we don't get at this issue is him drawing people , drawing Batman how people perceive him rather than the way he really looks . So there's a little bit of that going on here , with the shape of the Batman's head and everything , But in general , I love that all black silhouette where you just see the eyes and the face . I think it looks great .

Speaker 3 25:41

And then we get the most awesome character in this particular book . We get our Catman . the Catman And his tiger has and what ? what is the tiger ? we've been feeding that tiger because it looks like it's on steroids or something . The way it ripped open , it broke a chain , it ripped open that cage And then you get . What did you think of the Hatman's costume here ? The big reveal here .

Speaker 1 26:11

First of all , the reveal is amazing , the bottom of page four . It's an uplooking shot And it's okay . It's really hard to make a yellow costume look cool . I mean it's just very , very difficult And he pulled it off . Dave , i love what you just said about rounded corners and still being angular . I mean he really pulls it off here with Catman's costume . There's tons of angles , but there's also the round curves of the body , you know the and the torso and everything . It looks so sharp . I love one of the things I love throughout this whole thing I love how Catman's ears are always moving , like they flop left , they flop right . Here they're flop to the side . Brave Vogels obviously having fun with it , and I absolutely adore that . And back to the tiger , real quick . I mean he's bringing what looks like a , maybe a baby goat or a baby lamb or something . So that's what the tiger's eating . I mean he's eating well , apparently .

Speaker 4 26:59

I like what you said about his ears moving , because it makes me think of if you read Mad Magazine or Cracked Magazine the fairies . Batman's ears were always depicted that way . So , brave Vogels , basically taking it back .

Speaker 1 27:13

Sort of like that scene from . It was either Batman Forever or Batman and Robin , where he's running at the end .

Speaker 3 27:18

Yeah , I mean his ears are wiggling . Oh my gosh , was that a Batman and Robin reference ?

Speaker 1 27:25

It could have been . It depends on if I got the movie right or not .

Speaker 4 27:28

It was at the tail end of Batman Forever . That was their date with the Kid Crusader . But yeah , yellow is hard to pull off And this is as close as you get to pulling it off with this . It's a little Wolverine , a little Punisher , but it works .

Speaker 1 27:44

Got some Timberwolf going too with the chest symbol .

Speaker 3 27:48

And you know his ears . The way they move , i guess , is based on here . He looks kind of intense . Later on they really look kind of droopy , like a rabbit or something .

Speaker 3 28:02

So yeah , then we get this scene in the park where you got a reporter set up and she's like interviewing Commissioner Gordon . He really doesn't want to deal with her at all . But I love the way Bray Fogel and I'm sorry but I'm going to keep bringing him up like this whole issue because he has an iconic to me he has a very iconic Commissioner Gordon and Gordon just has an attitude with her and she's suggesting that it may be Catwoman , the mysterious Catwoman . Commissioner is like he just doesn't want any good part of that . He doesn't want to have to deal with her . They set up pretty quick , you know . They're in the park , they check the zoo and no animals been released , and then we get a scene with Catwoman . So between those two scenes Catwoman is reacting and it's a little different here because she actually growls a little bit , which I don't know if I've seen previously of her respond that way , but I think it's . Her issue was titled Cat , so we're getting a little , you know , emotion here . I dream to dream .

Speaker 1 29:15

I think some of what we're seeing is this is still very early days for Catwoman in the post-crisis universe . We got her in year one . then there was that mini series . I want to say Brosevsky drew it , if I remember right and I might be wrong on that , but this isn't too long after that , so she actually hasn't had a ton of appearances . So I think they're still sort of feeling out what this version of Catwoman is going to be like . Along those same lines , i think it's kind of funny with this again this early in the post-crisis era , where they're talking about Batman openly on the news like Batman found the body , and I'm thinking , isn't this the era where he's an urban legend ? for you know , they kind of deny his existence .

Speaker 3 29:51

You know , they kind of waffled back and forth with the urban legend thing , because there is even an issue that comes much later where it's revealed for the first time that Batman's own camera as he walks out . But it kind of had a fine line of yes , he is an urban legend , it depends who the writer was . It kind of waffled back and forth .

Speaker 1 30:17

Yeah , that makes sense And I want to echo real quick you're absolutely right about Bray Fogel's Commissioner

Gordon and Schrödinger's Cat Discussion

Speaker 1 30:22

Gordon . That is like this in my head . this is what Commissioner Gordon looks like Those glasses , they're reflective . you don't see the eyes , the droopy mustache , the thinning hair . I mean the trench coat with the flipped up , popped up collar like he's in the 80s . It just this is Gordon to me . It's great , it's beautiful .

Speaker 4 30:39

Yeah , bray Fogel's Gordon was always . it looked older , it looked age appropriate , but he's always had a little bit more weight to him And that felt right for somebody who's essentially got a desk job .

Speaker 1 30:49

Yeah , no , that's absolutely fair , I can totally see that . And a little bit of grizzled too . Like you know , he's like not old Westie , but you mean he kind of kind of guy's got some rough edges .

Speaker 4 30:58

He's seen some stuff .

Speaker 3 31:01

Yeah , absolutely . I just I love the way Gordon is there .

Speaker 1 31:06

So So how tenacious is this reporter ? Like she's told , you know , gordon shuts her down and she comes right back . She's trying to get some headlines . man , if this was the internet , she'd be going clickbait article headlines .

Speaker 3 31:18

Right , it's like you know , the star , one of those , the inquirer sort of thing . It reminds me , sort of that they're just trying to get anything . Well then we get a couple of these cat catchers , or whatever you want to call them . They're luring these cats and and we'll get another . Look at the Lux cat cat food , which must be pretty good because they're luring them in and catching these things . And I don't know if this is the company they work for , but it's called Trowdinger delivery . Are you all familiar with that ? You are .

Speaker 1 31:57

Yeah , oh yeah , trowdinger's cat , absolutely Yes .

Speaker 3 32:02

Okay . Well , i'm going to tell you what it is anyway , for everybody .

Speaker 1 32:06

I mean , I've never heard of it . Please , Bill , enlighten me .

Speaker 3 32:09

So Trowdinger's cat in quantum mechanics is a thought experiment that illustrates the paradox of quantum superposition . in the thought experiment , a hypothetical cat may be considered both alive and dead , while it's unobserved in a closed box as the result of a fate being linked to a random subatomic event that may or may not occur . It was devised by physicist Irvin Schrödinger in 1935 .

Speaker 1 32:47

I've always heard of it . I mean , yes , that's obviously textbook definition , but I've always heard of it more in philosophical discussions , you know , and the idea is , yeah , you've got a cat that's inside of a box and there's like a cyanide capsule in there that may or may not have opened at this point . So while the box is closed , at any given time the cat could be alive , the cat could be dead . It's a pretty morbid , creepy thing .

Speaker 3 33:06

Yes , he has it Yeah .

Batman and Catman Comic Analysis

Speaker 1 33:08

And if you've ever put a cat in a box before , they don't really shut up . So for the most part , I think you would actually know whether it's alive or dead .

Speaker 3 33:14

If the cat was dead or alive , yeah Right . Well , anyway , that's these guys . And they seem like smart fellows because they're getting 10 bucks a cat and they're telling stories . And it's like . You know , last year old Dawson told us about some geek busting open a pyramid and found a quarter million mummified cats inside And says what did he do with them ? He sold them to liver pull England as coffee table conversation pieces . Just a little humor they added in here . And then Batman's on the scene flying again . I still like . I like how they use , you know , the shape of the cape , like in a shadow behind them . It's a little different , so I do like . And then we have Catman swinging in again with the cape .

Speaker 1 34:08

So I want to chime in here if I can , and Dave , please interrupt , because I feel like I'm totally bow guarding all the cool stuff here . But like , one of the things I love about Brayfogle does here with Catman is he's showing us how his , how his equipment works . He's taking the time to show how the the cat claws fly up there , the buttony presses to release it , all that stuff . I like that he took the time to show how the equipment works . I just dig that .

Speaker 4 34:30

Yeah , it reminds me of when they would do the diagrams of , like , your devil's daily club or you know . You remember the Marvel Universe trading card series two , when they showed out how the calf shield work . Whatever I see stuff like this , I'm like , yes , feed me , make me believe it even more . It's like Star Trek Half the science is made up , but they make you believe it is . They just commit .

Speaker 1 34:50

It's the condor man of Superhero stuff .

Speaker 3 34:54

Yeah , and I like , i like how you know , when Batman uses his battering , especially in fighting . you know , brayfogle shows him throwing , knocking people down while he's combating . So I do like how they illustrate that here . And then we see the tiger for the first time And there's like this split panel , you know , where Batman reacts and Catman reacts and they're both swinging . I like it's like a dual panel . I do like like seeing that . I mean , the city is kind of the background and mostly it's about them swinging , about how their capes are and that sort of thing .

Speaker 1 35:35

I feel like one thing that sort of applied but they don't really show here is , i mean , batman and Catman . there's so many similarities in their motifs and things like that that Catman could have been more like Batman . I know they've done stories like that later Gale Simone did and things like that , but I feel like this panel really sort of demonstrates those similarities .

Speaker 3 35:54

Yeah , in the first appearance you know they had in Detective Comics the Catman . He basically mirrored himself between Batman and Catwoman But all his Cat , like Batman , has all these gimmicky things like the Batarang . It was all Cat related but it was like his opposite . That was a Cat . Well , it was really goofy back in the Golden Age and it just makes you laugh . And here it's , they kind of making more of a serious take of Catman with the same sort of same sort of thing .

Speaker 1 36:30

So I hope he calls the swing line like something based on Cat Gut or something like that .

Speaker 3 36:35

Oh , there was a bar that he went to Rob and it had a fiddle there , a cat playing the fiddle and the fiddle strings were made from Cat Gut And he was fighting Batwoman and he says I can't believe that a Cat Gut helped me out And it was like the cat had a bolt , the cat vehicle . There wasn't a kitty litter box or anything , but it was corny stuff like that .

Speaker 4 37:07

Let's be honest if green arrow can be Batman with arrow thing , Catman can do the same thing with CatD , Right .

Speaker 3 37:13

But yeah , he catches up with the tiger . Here he sees this thug being mauled . This is pretty entertaining because we get Catman Catman , he throws his little catarang , cuts Batman's bat rope and Batman's basically in trouble because the tiger's getting ready to take him out . And this is when we see Catman , you know , cuddling up with his tiger , and there's where the ears go all floppy . They go all floppy and he's this big smile on it and it's funny . It's kind of corny , so that's a very corny .

Speaker 1 37:53

But I love it . I love that amount of cheese .

Speaker 3 37:56

But yeah , we get these morons that you know we're catching cats here and they're telling more stories that are just I don't know . Who hired these guys .

Speaker 1 38:06

Some creepy lab . Now I gotta say we've been waxing Norm Brayfogle's car here , right , but we should be waxing Alan Grant's car too , because if you look at this , the way this is layered , it's really intelligent . I took a few minutes to stop and think about the way he layered this as a story . You got the A plot , which is the loose tiger right and Catman running around . The B plot Catwoman , she's out there dealing with stuff , and then the C plot or you can interchange B and C . whichever is , these catcatchers , the Schrodinger's labs , folks , right And Grant has taken these three completely separate things and woven it together , that it all comes together in a beautiful climax . I mean , it's just really expertly done .

Speaker 4 38:46

I love that the climax actually ends up with Catman in this metaphorical box as the car Schrodinger's box . So he was alive and dead until the door was open .

Speaker 1 38:57

Oh , I didn't even see that .

Speaker 4 38:59

Wow , there you go . See what Alan Grant did there .

Speaker 3 39:02

That's pretty cool .

Speaker 4 39:04

I like that a lot I thought Catwoman wore that gray costume for a shorter amount of time . I really did , and apparently it wasn't until 1993 that they switched her up to that purple bodysuit with the long gloves and the long boots . I thought that would wait early .

Speaker 1 39:19

I think that was . Jim Blanton did that in the showcase or right after the showcase , right around Catwoman number one , yeah .

Speaker 4 39:26

I think you mean Jim , i like boobs now . Well , i was going to say yeah , i was going to say .

Speaker 1 39:31

Dc said wait a minute , this check . If we really sex her up , it'll sell a lot of comics . And it worked . Yeah , And I use all of those phrases as a joke , Please understand .

Speaker 4 39:45

Would you say that she's attractive or fetching ?

Speaker 1 39:48

or She is an intelligent woman , dave . She's got a lot of skills , she is clever And , by the way , she happens to be hot .

Speaker 3 39:59

So direct all questions , comments , complaints to Once a time , a geek on Twitter , not the bad pod , oh my God . Well , yeah , we get this tiger in Catman , basically six the tiger when he takes Batman's utility built and ties him to a pole , basically or an antenna . It's an antenna And he has a little fight with Batman , which is kind of cool

Batman Comic Panel Analysis

Speaker 3 40:31

. I like how these panels are . They're like horizontal panels . You see a lot of action here And I love seeing action like this And I can't say that . You see , you know , even comics nowadays , where some of the artists do Batman , they miss out that some of the action is like in between the panels . I like that . We see all the action right here .

Speaker 4 40:55

Yeah , the horizontal panels maybe think of anime The way like I just see it moving , the way anime will layer up different scenes as people are fighting . I don't know if Bray Fogel was an anime fan , but immediately it moved in my own head .

Speaker 1 41:07

That makes a lot of sense . Yeah , it's also very cinematic , you know , with the wide panels like that I actually had . My note on the panel design was just that it's very interesting And I love how Bray Fogel varies it from page to page . It's not revolutionary , but it's just interestingly done . It's very clever , it's well done And it's very effective , as you guys just pointed out .

Speaker 3 41:29

Yeah , absolutely . And she's fighting with the cat . Catwoman intervenes and she's fighting with Cat Man . She actually throws Cat . You see him being tossed and then he lands on top of their little van and they're like breaking out because it's a giant cat . And then Batman , you have the Schroeder-Schrodinger delivery van taking off and you have that action again with a car . It's like screeching off and I like that , and Batman and the Catwoman has a chance to help him out . But they're in a different place , you know , and she's like those two are big enough to look out for themselves . And then we get a scene here where Batman is riding this tiger , which is pretty interesting because if we go back to the original and Cat Man is riding a mechanical cat in his first appearance and he has like these bars , that he's controlling the cat and it's going after Batman and Robin , and it sort of reminded me about that issue that he's riding this cat and he ends up taking them out , and but I thought that was kind of that was kind of callback to maybe that issue .

Speaker 1 42:49

Oh , that's nice . Amongst the fight and the illustrations you were talking about , what I want to point out is on the bottom of page 16 , and I really only noticed this because I read it in panel by panel mode on the DC app . But the bottom panel of page 16 is such a signature move for Bray Fogel . It's where the tiger , there's all the only detail , like the eyes in the top of his head . Everything else are these weird sort of vertical lines , but it's something he does to illustrate shadow and hard to see , and it's such a Bray Fogel move . And if you show me just that panel I would instantly know who the artist was , because it's just that much defining .

Speaker 3 43:23

Right , and the other thing he does is you know that the character sometime Batman , in particular in this one , overlaps the panel above , you know , with his head , and I like seeing that sometime cat woman does it a panel near the top .

Speaker 4 43:39

I love that it looks like Batman is using your double speed like club . I mean it's the antenna , but straight up looks like when Alex Ross was trying to design a Batman costume for Dick Grayson . He went with the blue and he added six X-Grammon states . That's what this looks like . Yeah , It's also also Batman using the environment , So that's all when right there .

Speaker 3 43:59

And then there's a big , you know three quarter page panel where Batman just body slams the cat and takes his bat rope and I guess he puts it to sleep And he's like give in , give in . I love how they do the isolates there for Batman And that's another brave focal thing and the way they do the isolates . And I really like that particular page because you get four different things and this three quarter page . You get some action there and then a close up of his cow .

Speaker 1 44:34

I like also . I mean the idea of the panel being Batman doesn't want to kill the cat , Right . Right , He wants to do the isolates because he knows it's not the cat's fault . You know , the cat is just doing what nature takes and wants him to do . So Batman's trying to save the cat but also save his life at the same time .

Speaker 4 44:52

Miller would have written it differently .

Speaker 3 44:56

So then you have your two goofy guys . They ran away and they said whatever the cat thing ? and threw it right off the top . It says Uncle Ernie will kill me if his van is trashed . I'm gonna open the back and it's . you know , cat Man fell through the van But we see all these cats coming out . I don't know how they were going to get them out anyway , because , okay , it's like let's take something , let's shake up a dozen cats and then open the door . What do you think's going to ?

Speaker 4 45:31

happen . Confetti with claws Right . I just realized that Cat Woman inadvertently saved the lives of all these cats by throwing Cat Man in there . Good point , good point .

Speaker 3 45:42

Yeah , it all really does come together . She knew what she was doing .

Speaker 1 45:46

And then you notice , these guys find religion too . I mean , they see Cat Man . It's a judgment . They're like you know , they're praying , basically saying I'll never do anything bad again . Please just let me live .

Speaker 3 45:57

Yeah , they just run away . There's a scene here where Cat Woman actually confronts this reporter She's doing another report , you know , update in the slang and says and the news is there is no news . And then Cat Woman just appears out of a tree , her head kind of appears down , she's on a limb and she makes sure she states she does not eat people and she's slashing at the cameras . The camera goes dark and then you see her , you know , hanging upside down , tied to a tree , hanging from this tree . So I did like how even though this Cat Woman is , you know , as we said , we're trying to figure out how to I think she did react as best as she could in this scene . And then we get more Batman . Batman shows up to , you know , commissioner Gordon , and we get another panel where you see Batman's cow , but you don't see some of the features . You see his thigh slits and you see the mouth , and that's another bravo type of thing . Want to close up ? I like to see . I really enjoyed that .

Speaker 4 47:14

I love that Batman has to point out that , no , he's not joking about the tiger thing .

Speaker 1 47:19

Well , i think it's the name of the where the , where the tiger's found . It's because the tiger is found on a hot tin roof .

Speaker 4 47:26

So you know cat on a hot tin roof . Right .

Speaker 1 47:30

Yeah , that that brave Fogel Batman is . I mean I know we just keep saying over and over guy was such a talent . I mean he was such a talent . He was the Batman artist in the 90s as far as I'm concerned , and it's just . This issue is a perfect example of why he became who he was .

Speaker 3 47:46

Absolutely , and this Grant Bray Fogel team . They work together a lot , especially I'll just mention about this detective run . They were on there from issues 583 to 594 and then again 601 through 617 . And during that time we got the ventriloquist and Scarface first appearance , we got the mud pack , we got anarchy first appearance And you can say what you want about that character . But but we got some good stuff . Unfortunately he didn't do , they didn't do year two , which is a classic to some . But yeah , i loved how they work together . And I mean Alan Grant . I mean we haven't mentioned him too much , but everything I've read of him has been enjoyable .

Speaker 1 48:39

Yeah , second , that Absolutely .

Speaker 4 48:41

Oh , i love his psychological thing . And these two just butter and jelly , and I know you can have one without the other and it's fine , it's good , but the other magic .

Speaker 3 48:51

And then we get a final page , you know , with a different reporter , because the original reporter , she she went to the hospital cause she's in shock As a result of the brutal treatment at the hands of the mysterious cat woman . And then they show , you know , cat woman , at the end she got her lux cat cat food and her cat is very happy and they're purring together . Any final thoughts will start with David on this issue .

Speaker 4 49:22

This was a really , really good one . I mean , it was perfectly self contained . It brought Catman into a story where he was not fully the comic relief , but not the big bad , and you got cat woman as well . There's no downside to this issue .

Speaker 1 49:38

It's just a lot of fun , You know it's . It's not one that everyone's going to immediately remember , because there's not a huge mythology building here or it doesn't change things forever . It's just like Dave said it's a fun done in one , And obviously it was enough to hook me as a you know , a reader for a very long , long Batman phase . This is what did it , right here .

Speaker 3 49:58

When you mentioned what book you were picking , I didn't remember what . It was off the top of my head , So I had to look . But as soon as I saw the cover , it's like , oh , that one , I know that one , I read that one . So so I yeah , this is my era and I really enjoyed this and revisiting this as goofy is Catman was in this play , There's still a goofy Catman era is still there's a place for that . So I really enjoyed that . So we're going to go ahead and head to what we learned .

Speaker 1 50:35

And I'll see you guys in the next one , so join me in an ever changing roster of guest hosts as we celebrate your favorite JLI members , such as . Batman Martian manhunter .

Speaker 3 51:24

Captain Atom Fire Ice .

Speaker 2 51:27

Rocket Red The Flash , i mean Crimson Fox . Guy Gardner , metamorpho Booster .

Speaker 1 51:40

Gold , blue Beetle , nort Justice League .

Speaker 3 51:53

International Bwaha podcast , part of the Fire and Water podcast network .

Speaker 4 51:57

Want to make something of it . So , david , what did you learn in this episode ? I learned how to play Catman into one of the most awesome hardcore characters in comics , and if you've ever watched her on Twitter , she's a delight . Definitely not a bear .

Speaker 3 52:15

Oh , absolutely She . Yeah , she's very entertaining and has done a lot of great stuff in her room , right . So , Shag , what did you learn in this episode ?

Speaker 1 52:28

Well , my , i have a backup , thank goodness , because my first point was exactly what Dave had . You know , no one , no one , ever took Catman seriously until Gale Simone . So , but my backup is don't bait Catwoman , just don't do it . You're not going to like what the result of that is .

Speaker 3 52:43

No , definitely not in this issue . She , she sort of took out her revenge after she got you know . She got her growl out of the way A growling Catwoman was . She was very entertaining in this issue . I liked the way she was portrayed .

Speaker 1 53:00

Well , i think the reporter had it coming . She baited Catwoman . She went after her for no reason . What's the matter ? Got what she deserved . So I learned my lesson . I won't be baiting Selena Kyle anytime soon .

Speaker 3 53:12

So what I learned in this episode is you know this Shrodinger delivery , you know the hired , these couple of gentlemen . They need to revisit the interview process . You know they need to ask some , some questions like common sense questions , like you know , ethical questions , cause these guys were a couple of dingbats And I think they wouldn't have passed if they would have asked some more important questions during the interview .

Speaker 1 53:52

Might want to invest in some cages inside the truck too .

Speaker 3 53:55

Individual cages , that was my plan just to throw cats in there . It reminds me of Dumb and Dumber . You know how they just threw all the dogs and threw food in there and it went everywhere as they're driving . It's just like the cats you just shake them up in a box and let them loose .

Speaker 1 54:14

How'd you describe them , dave ? Was it confetti with claws ? Something like that ? Confetti with claws yeah .

Speaker 3 54:21

So , yeah , that was our episode . We really appreciate you coming on here , shag . We had a blast . Do you want to give a shout out to your podcast network ? That sort of thing ?

Speaker 1 54:39

Absolutely . I appreciate that . Well , first off , i just want to say thank you so much for having me on the show . Bill and Dave , you guys have been incredibly gracious hosts . You put up with my silliness Incredibly sparkling conversation . It's been absolutely a joy And also , from the bottom of my heart , thank you both for wearing shirts , since we're doing video . That meant a lot to me .

Speaker 4 54:57

Okay , i'm not saying about pants , but that's cool .

Speaker 1 55:01

So if people wanted to hear more of me and I don't know why they would want to they could find me over on the Fire and Water Podcast Network where we've got a ton of shows . There's a lot of different creators over there . I am actively involved in our Justice League International Bwah-Ha-Ha podcast , where I'm focused on the Giffen Demuteus era of the JLI , and then I'm also doing a show called Once Upon a Geek , which is just sort of my exploration and talking about stuff that makes me happy . I've been doing that for a couple of years now , and then also our other shows I appear on are Aquaman and Firestorm , the Who's Who Show , digest , cast , and then I'm in various places around the network .

Speaker 3 55:35

Yes , Great stuff , Great stuff . No one issue that I really want to pick for the show but it doesn't have a lot of Batman in it , but Batman is technically in . It is the JLI issue , the One Punch . I just want to have it on the show so I can talk about it , But I love that show . One of my favorite issues is actually Justice League Europe . I don't remember the exact issue , but it's when they go to have French lessons .

Speaker 1 56:12

Issue number six the .

Speaker 3 56:13

French lesson .

Speaker 1 56:14

It's a fantastic issue .

Speaker 3 56:16

One of my favorites of all time . I love that issue .

Speaker 1 56:20

It's between the French lesson and then the Moving Day , which is number eight in the other show , the French lesson . I'm glad you

Blue Beetle and Booster Gold Podcast

Speaker 1 56:28

mentioned it . I actually explained the plot of that to my daughter a couple of years ago with a teenager , and she's just like you know what That sounds hilarious . I mean , she got it , she saw the humor in it And she doesn't care about any of the stuff we do . So that was pretty awesome .

Speaker 4 56:43

I'm just saying Blue Beetle and Booster Gold . That romance is the core of that book . The fact that there's not been a Blue and Gold podcast is a shame .

Speaker 3 56:54

Yeah , I never thought about that . That would be I did . I don't like it .

Speaker 1 56:59

Yet there was a Silver and Gold podcast for quite a while with Captain Adam and Booster Gold , and then , on that same network , they started a Blue Beetle show . But you're right , they didn't do one together . Interesting .

Speaker 4 57:11

Money's on the table , as Ryan Daly once said .

Speaker 1 57:15

By the time , i'm done with JLI . I've been doing it for eight years , so I'm done . Someone else , please pick up that ball and run with it , and I'd be happy to listen to it every month . Bye .